Nova Leap CEO: Hospital at Home to Have Big Ripple Effects in Home Care

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At the Halifax, Nova Scotia-based Nova Leap, the expression Thank God It’s Friday (TGIF) has taken on a whole new meaning.

Over the years, the company – which is a rapidly growing home care services company that operates in the U.S. and Canada – has become a regular on the M&A scene. Typically, the company averages four acquisitions annually.

But at the end of last year, Nova Leap ended up closing three deals in different markets over the course of three straight Fridays.

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But despite its voracious appetite for dealmaking, the company hasn’t lost sight of what’s on the plate in front of them: dementia care. When originally forming the company, President and CEO Chris Dobbin, saw a gap in the dementia care market on the home care side.

Between acquisition and a heavy focus on better training, Dobbin believes Nova Leap has found their lane, which is a significant one.

“I think there was an additional level of training that could be provided around dementia training, and so we really approached the market on that basis,” he told Home Health Care News during a recent HHCN+ TALKS conversation.

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HHCN is pleased to share the recording and transcript of our HHCN+ TALKS conversation with Dobbin. Read on to learn more about:

– Why Dobbin believes there’s a hospital-at-home opportunity in home-based care

– Why Nova Leap has shied away from embracing Medicare Advantage

– How caregiver referrals have become a reliable recruitment tool for Nova Leap

The below has been edited for length and clarity.

[00:00:05] Bob Holly: Good afternoon everyone and welcome to another episode of HHCN+ TALKS. I’m Bob Holly, managing editor of Home Health Care News, and today I’ll be speaking with Chris Dobbin, president and CEO of the home care provider Nova Leap. In case you haven’t joined us for Talks before, this is our monthly, sometimes bi-monthly interview series where we connect with home health, home care and senior care executives that are shaping the future of their industries.

One of the great parts of Talks is that attendees can submit questions to me via the question function in Zoom here. If you want us to dive deeper in a particular topic, please do that. Make use of that question box. I’ll try to sprinkle those questions in as we go. Okay, let’s get to it. Chris, thank you so much for being here.

[00:00:54] Chris Dobbin: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

[00:00:56] Bob: It’s been a while since we connected. I think I interviewed you for the first time a couple of years ago, so before we dive into what’s going on at Nova Leap, just you personally, how have you been? How’s everything going today?

[00:01:07] Chris: Good. It’s been a busy couple of years, but as everybody knows in this industry, things have been going pretty well.

[00:01:14] Holly: Okay. Well, for folks tuning in who aren’t super familiar with Nova Leap, your company is a publicly traded company headquartered in Canada with a growing presence here in the United States as well. I think to start, so we can get a good feel for what’s going on with Nova Leap, can you give us the market overview? Where does Nova Leap provide services today?

[00:01:39] Dobbin: Sure. We’re headquartered in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada as you alluded to, but I’d say about 80%, 85% of our business is in the U.S. We operate across 11 states. When we first started the business back in 2016, it was primarily a New England footprint. We’ve since expanded into the Midwest and South Central as well. Actually, we’re in the Southeastern part of the U.S. as well now. About 11 states, but started in the northeastern part of the U.S.

[00:02:06] Bob: As far as your service mix, what are your core services? Typical home care model? Do you do anything a little bit differently than some of your peers?

[00:02:17] Chris: Yes. We’re a private-pay model. We accept some VA as well as long-term care insurance, but primarily activities of daily living (ADL). We have some private-duty nursing as well, but pretty much the run-of-the-mill direct non-medical home care.

[00:02:35] Holly: I always like asking people how they got into home care. Usually, there’s a personal story, or maybe they were in the finance world and they just had it. They wanted to do something a little bit more rewarding with their careers. What’s your story? You’re the founding president and CEO of Nova Leap. Did you wake up one day and say, “I’m going to build a multinational home care company that operates in Canada and the US?”

[00:03:04] Dobbin: Look, one of the benefits I’ve had over the last few years since I started the company back in 2016 has been just meeting great people, whether it’s been at conferences, videos like this, telephone meetings, or in-person. The one thing I found is a commonality between all of us. In some way, we’ve been impacted by home care. Whether it’s a mom or dad or aunt or uncle or grandparent, there’s a commonality.

My story is probably pretty similar to those that I’ve met or encountered over the last few years. A number of years ago, my father-in-law was diagnosed with Parkinson’s. We didn’t have any experience with that type of diagnosis in the past. I didn’t know anything about home care at the time. He had deteriorated, I would say, over a period of a few years to the point that really my mother-in-law decided that she wanted home care for two reasons. One, for respite or respite, depending on the accent of where we’re talking about, because she needed a break. Two, because he needed quite a bit of assistance.

Moving around, mobility issues, bathing, getting up in the middle of the night. A lot of stuff I think folks that would be on this call would see in their own agencies, or they’ve seen in their own personal lives. That was our family’s first experience with home care. I’d say about 9 or 10 months after he passed away, my wife and I saw an opportunity to acquire a home care company, so we acquired that business in Nova Scotia. Then we really went from this personal family experience to providing care to quite a number of families along what we call the Northern Corridor of Nova Scotia.

Then, over time, after operating that agency, we really began to realize just how big of a market it is — just the different dynamics that families face. I thought there might be an opportunity for a bit of a broader business. It was really driven by the fact that as nice as the folks that were providing care to my father-in-law and for my mother-in-law were, I’d say there was a bit of a lack of training when it came to dementia care. That was a bit of a gap that we saw in the market.

When we acquired the first business, I’d say we found that gap existed as well. Terrific people, fantastic people, but I think there was an additional level of training that could be provided around dementia training, and so we really approached the market on that basis. I looked at the size of the market, both in Canada and the U.S., saw there’s obviously an aging demographic, but also saw what appeared to be a lot of businesses where owners over time would be looking for a succession plan, an exit or would want to partner with perhaps a larger entity to drive their business further than what maybe they were able to do on their own.

Starting Nova Leap Health Corp. back in 2016, we are a publicly traded company, as you alluded to, which is a bit of a unique model in the home care space at our size. I’ll talk about that in a bit, but that’s how the business started, really personal experience, family experience, and then getting into home care agency ownership and maybe perhaps seeing a bit of a larger opportunity beyond one agency.

[00:06:23] Holly: It’s funny, I think we’re reconnecting here almost three years ago exactly from our first interview. I think that was also in June 2019. What I remember from that conversation was, again, this focus on dementia. I think you told me at the time that your long-term vision for Nova Leap was becoming a dominant player in the in-home dementia care space in North America. Sounds like that’s still the goal for Nova Leap.

[00:06:55] Dobbin: Yes. When we say dominant, I want to be careful because it maybe doesn’t sound the best when we’re talking about those living with dementia. I think I would reframe it to say we want to be one of the best providers of that type of care. That’s really what’s important to me. I really dwell on our family situation in terms of what we experienced and I just know the impact – when you have proper training – that that can have on folks. It’s still a goal. There are lots of great care providers out there. We want to be one of those care providers that are able to provide that level of care that is necessary at the family level.

That really hasn’t changed. It’s still very much a focus for us. When we acquire agencies, if they haven’t had that level of training, we’re still bringing that to bear. It’s very much a focus of ours going forward.

[00:07:44] Holly: It’s obviously such an important need right now, specialized dementia training, but then also you look at some of the projections. I know for the U.S. population, the number of individuals that are projected to be living with some sort of dementia moving forward is astounding. We need more types of companies like Nova Leap really focusing on that. That was one thing that stood out to me at the time of that conversation. I also remember the driver for me reaching out was it seems like every single week Nova Leap was completing an acquisition back then.

I think when we connected in 2019, in the prior two years, you executed maybe eight acquisitions or so. Have you kept that same M&A pace? Could you walk me through June 2019 to June 2022?

[00:08:38] Dobbin: Yes, I guess if we had acquired eight agencies over that couple-year period, that’s pretty much on par for our activity. We average one closed acquisition per quarter every three months, so four a year, and we’ve done that over the course of the last five years, so that sounds about right. Now, it goes in spurts. We’re not talking about every three months, at the end of a month, there’s a closing. That’s not how it works.

I’ll give you an example. At the end of last year, I think between the second and last week of December we closed three deals over the course of three Fridays.

Friday, Friday, Friday, we end up closing three different deals in really three different parts of the country. I think we closed five last year, but the average has been about four per year, and it’s been that way consistently over the last few years. Whether it’s three one year, like I think it was in 2020, or five last year, the average works out to be the same. Pretty much on par for when we first met back in 2019. The only difference I think has been the geographies where we’ve expanded to.

At the time we would have been chatting back in June 2019, we primarily would’ve been in Nova Scotia and then New England, so we would’ve been in I think Vermont, New Hampshire, Rhode Island and Massachusetts. I think it was later that year in October when we made our first jump into South Central. We acquired a business in Oklahoma. We’ve since acquired another one in Oklahoma, one in Arkansas, and one in Texas. We’ve expanded a little bit since then.

[00:10:13] Holly: Was dealmaking affected during the pandemic? I’m assuming most of your peers in 2020, in the first half of the year at least, you were pausing just to take stock of what’s going on.

[00:10:28] Dobbin: Yes, we paused. We definitely paused. We started to see the impact in February or March of 2020. At the time, it was just a lot of uncertainty, right? A lot of things were coming from a legislative perspective, but also just from a care perspective. I talk about care, looking after both caregivers and our staff, as well as the clients. Quite a bit of uncertainty we were going through. A bit of a high-stress time for everybody operating in that environment.

We definitely put a pause, I’d say, for three or four months, and then we started looking again. We started actively looking, probably, mid-2020, putting some more feelers out, but we were cautious. That’s probably the best way to describe it at that point in time.

[00:11:19] Holly: I don’t know where this expression came from, but there’s obviously more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to growth in the home care market. I don’t think I’ve used that phrase on a Home Health Care News webinar before. Hopefully, I’m not offending any cat people on this. Would you say that your main growth strategy is through acquisition, or are you also doing de novos? Is organic growth a core driver as well?

[00:11:48] Dobbin: Well, I’d like to think all three are our drivers. Now, having said that, our primary driver the last few years has certainly been by way of acquisition. Again, we’re publicly traded, so anyone can find this information. I think our revenue for all of 2016, which is really when I started the public company, we had $40,000 in revenue. Based on where we are now, we’re roughly $30 million in revenue. We’re still small for a publicly traded company but probably one of the more sizable companies in the home care space, but it’s been driven primarily by way of acquisitions.

We typically buy smaller agencies. I say smaller; they tend to be on the average size, I guess, is the best way to describe them. Yes, primarily driven by acquisition. There’s been some price adjustments we’ve made now and then. I’d say de novo is definitely part of our strategy going forward. Again, similar to what we did with the acquisitions back in early 2020, we really put that on pause. We opened a brand new office in Ohio. A startup location, de novo location.

It was probably not the best time in April 2020 to be opening a brand new office location at the start of the pandemic. It was a little bit difficult to get in and see people, right? When you’re trying to establish relationships, it’s definitely a lot easier when you see people face-to-face than it is picking up a phone call. Everybody else at that time was dealing with pretty stressful situations, the lack of staff in hospitals and facilities, and so on. We did put that strategy on pause. Certainly going forward, that is a large part of our strategy. We liked that strategy. Like anything, it’s all about attracting the right people in those locations.

[00:13:39] Holly: On the M&A front, as a company who’s fairly active when it comes to deal-making, would you say that the art of deal-making – per se – is very different in June 2022 than it was in June 2019? How has the M&A game changed for Nova Leap over the past few years?

[00:14:03] Dobbin: Good question. I don’t know that the nature of discussions has been that much different. I’d say valuation has probably ticked up a little bit. A lot of the folks were impacted by the pandemic, but yet it puts a spotlight on home care because more folks are separated from common areas where the spread of the virus was greater. I just think our space is really quite attractive. I’d say there’s probably a bit of an evaluation tick up that we saw over the last 12 months.

Now, given the current environment – where we are with rising interest rates and so on – we’ll see whether or not those are adjusted. I think the volume of transactions has always been pretty steady for us. I don’t think that’s changed much from 2019 to where we are today. I haven’t seen a dip or a huge increase. Maybe at the tail end of last year where folks were worried about an increase in capital gains rate, that may have been driving some deal flow, but nature of the conversation is pretty much the same.

It’s really one of two things we’re looking at. One, if someone’s looking for an exit. Succession planning, they’re tired and it’s just the right time for them to transition the business and they’re looking for someone that really wants to look after their staff and take it to the next level, or they’re not ready for retirement but they’re looking for a partner to help grow either to multiple locations within a state or to a broader area. Those tend to be the two transactions we look at. From that perspective, I don’t think it’s been that different over the course of the last few years.

[00:15:43] Holly: Following up on that a little bit, Nova Leap obviously will acquire an agency because you’re looking to maybe enter a new market for the first time, but I’m hearing from more providers who are doing acquisitions because they need the caregivers, they need the staff, and rather than expansion, it’s really acquisition to acquire more manpower, so to speak. Has that been a driver of deal-making for Nova Leap?

[00:16:13] Dobbin: No, it really hasn’t. Let’s go back to 2018. We’d entered the Massachusetts market. Matter of fact, I think we made four or five acquisitions in that market. There was one time where we actually acquired a competitor that was about half an hour up the road, but that wasn’t really because we wanted additional staffing. It was really because we were both servicing the same geography in between us. A lot of the same referral sources and so on. Again, both of these were examples of succession plans.

That would be the closest example of a local competitor that we’ve acquired, but it really had nothing to do at that time about staffing. I’d say we don’t look at it from that perspective to acquire staff because in those types of situations, if it’s just like the tech world, you say that’s an acquihire. You’re just acquiring the staff. That’s not what we’re looking to do because, from our perspective, what’s important to us is not just the folks providing care within the home or within facilities, it’s actually the office staff as well.

I think for us, when we get the office staff who have been the drivers of the business for the last few years, we’re hoping that they obviously want to stay on with us post-acquisition and will be there for several years to come. What we find is we give them an increased responsibility, and they tend to gravitate towards that. We don’t think of acquisitions as really just trying to get a caregiver basis example. It’s not really a thought for us.

[00:17:55] Holly: One more question on the M&A front. You mentioned transaction volume staying relatively on par with your historic volume at Nova Leap. I think on a macro-level, we’re seeing a lot more home care deal-making volume, at least prior to 2022. I think maybe it has ticked downward a little bit, but a lot of that’s been driven by private equity. Even some large strategic buyers have been looking at home care when in years past they never have. Is all that interest and recognition in the value of home care making it more difficult to source these deals and ultimately land them?

[00:18:38] Dobbin: I think in terms of deal flow, we see lots of it. That really has never been an issue for us. I do think if you have more players that are coming in the space and they’re looking to acquire businesses the same as we are, then it becomes more competitive, meaning that there’s going to be the odd one where you’re not going to win a bid, for example, if it’s broker-represented and they’re put into auction, they’re used to have other players and so there’s a high probability that someone else may get that deal, and that could drive valuations up.

There are a lot of these businesses around. I think for the sellers they have a choice. They do have a choice often about who they want to sell to. I think ultimately they end up making some pretty good choices, whether it’s us or somebody else. They’ve got the reasons for making that choice. I think anytime there’s more competitors in a space, it’ll mean that maybe you won’t get deals that you’d otherwise would, had they not been there.

[00:19:36] Holly: Shifting gears a little bit, Nova Leap is a publicly traded company. That makes it a little bit fun for me because I could actually ask about your revenue since this new layer of transparency compared to a privately held company. Your most recent quarter, I believe I remember seeing revenues were the highest in company history. Could you walk me through why that was the case? Then even beyond that, I think you’ve had seven consecutive quarters of revenue growth and five consecutive quarters of record revenues. What’s really behind all this?

[00:20:16] Dobbin: Look, we’ve got some great people as part of the organization. It’s what we’re looking for as part of acquisitions, and those folks continue to run the businesses after we’ve made those acquisitions. Our folks that are on the ground in the markets where we operate are really driving that. A lot of it’s been driven by acquisition. We’ve been a pretty acquisitive type of company over the last few years. Again, on average, closing one deal every three months.

We’re talking about Q1 numbers, so January to March. Again, back in December, we’d closed three transactions. That was the first quarterly period in public-company speak that we had really baked in those results. Those three acquisitions were really driving those results. We issue a press release every quarter when we publish our results. It’s pretty easy to dig through the information.

We put out a five-year revenue target and so that would’ve taken us, I think, to the end of 2026 because we put that out at the end of Q3 of 2021. We said that we were targeting $100 million of revenue. Long ways to go to get there, but we’re steadily making progress. Again, doing so with respecting the folks that we’ve hired, but also never forgetting how we started the business, which was the focus on dementia care.

[00:21:47] Holly: We’ve focused a lot on mergers and acquisitions so far, even when it comes to revenue growth and how that has propelled revenue growth for Nova Leap. What about other factors? I know that because home care is recognized as a more valuable service from referral sources these days, and even clients themselves, some agencies have lifted their prices a little bit. Also, obviously caregiver shortages factor into that. Then, of course, I’m sure just the overarching consumer demand has been a tailwind for Nova Leap as well.

[00:22:24] Dobbin: Yes. I think the points you’re making are valid in our situation as well. I think one of the things that we always think about going forward is the demand is going to be there. We have an aging demographic obviously, whether it’s dementia or other needs within the home.Whether we were doing this or not, I think the demand is going to be there for several decades to come. That’s just the reality of the situation.

Again, I use the term spotlight on the industry. I think that’s accurate. If you take a look at it, whether it’s in the private-pay side or even on government-sponsored programs, where can you offer cost-effective care with good outcomes? I think home care is the place to be. We’ve seen more and more talk about hospital at home, and so on and so forth. I think there’s reasons for that. I think the demand is always going to be there. For the agencies, the demand will be there as long as they provide great service. This is a reputational type of business, for sure.

Pricing gets adjusted, I think periodically, depending on the situation. I think a lot of agencies have certainly had to make adjustments based on the caregiver shortage or demand for higher wages. I think certainly the home care agencies in the private-pay space have the ability if they so choose to pass some of those increased costs on to the clients. Let’s face it, we’ve certainly seen lots of the agencies or different jurisdictions where maybe the billing rates weren’t as high as they ought to be for whatever reason.

Sometimes it’s just the confidence of an owner because that’s not why they’re in the business. They want to really make an impact, but we’ve certainly seen situations where you can get someone to clean your home for more than what’s being charged for home care, which doesn’t necessarily make a lot of sense given the work we do.

[00:24:20] Holly: You mentioned earlier how the bulk of your revenue comes from private pay. Do you see that changing anytime soon? I know that some providers have been looking more at Medicare Advantage in home care, for example. What has been the long-term vision for that?

[00:24:39] Dobbin: I don’t see the mix changing much. We like the space, we know it well. Medicare Advantage, I think we’ve taken a look at. I can’t wrap my head around it. I just have a hard time the way it’s currently set up. At least for us, it doesn’t appear to be that attractive and so we haven’t spent a whole lot of time on it beyond some initial looking at it, but we like the private-pay space. We think it’s a market for us to be in, and we’ll continue to do that going forward. We do get lots of opportunities for different types of technology that could be applied. There’s lots of things we look at, that I guess are perhaps adjacent to home care.

We always look at those things, but we’ve never found anything that is attractive enough yet for us to veer into an adjacent market.

[00:25:34] Holly: Just to clarify, when you mention not being able to wrap your head around Medicare Advantage or get on that train. This is what I hear from a lot of your peers — either the contracting rates are too low or the benefits that [plans are] designing are for a relatively low number of hours for their clients. Is it just because of the scale of what MA plans are trying to do at this point?

[00:26:02] Dobbin: Yes. The rates are one thing. I think it’s different depending on the state that you’re in. Yes, also low hours could be an impact. I think for us, it’s just good to have control of the rates. If we have to pay more carriers, which we do every year as it is anyway, because we always budget for that, then we have the ability to maintain the margins. I think you can get into a situation where the margins get so squeezed that you’re really worried financially. That’s not really the type of model that we want to be in where it’s so volume-driven. It’s just not quite the fit for us at this point.

[00:26:38] Holly: I want to go back to your first-quarter earnings press release and a comment that you made on that. You talked about how Nova Leap was taking a balanced approach as we focus on caregiver recruitment and retention, “We have begun allocating additional resources to business development initiatives that we believe will yield long-term, sustainable, organic growth for some of our existing agencies.” Picking that apart a little bit, what are you doing specifically as far as caregiver recruitment and retention? Could you maybe share some examples of initiatives or strategies that you’re taking there?

[00:27:16] Dobbin: Yes. On the recruitment side, everything. We try everything if something works. One of the things I think we’ve seen from a stat perspective, and this has been communicated throughout our industry, has been if you hire somebody from Indeed versus from a referral from your own caregiver, what’s the likelihood they’re going to stay with you? It’s pretty high if it’s from one of your own staff, but it’s a lot lower if it’s through Indeed. Yet, Indeed tends to be the first spot everybody goes to.

You start to look at information like that and figure out, “Okay, well, what can we do internally first?” We end up working quite a bit with our caregivers internally before trying to attract externally. It’s really interesting. We’ve got some folks that obviously were with us well before we ever owned the agency, and some of them have been with the businesses 15, 20 years. That’s extraordinary, that’s a long time. I think that’s something to be celebrated.

If we could ever get to a situation with a larger cohort or a larger number of our caregivers in that type of longevity, that’s success to me. That’s real success. It’s a high-turnover industry. We’re always trying different things. We speak to our colleagues’ industry all the time trying to figure out what they do, and we get calls about what we’re doing. I think there’s just a regular sharing of information and we’re all trying to figure it out together. It’s just trying a lot of different things all the time. Again, what works at one agency might work in another one, or something new might work. Just a bit of a balance.

[00:28:54] Holly: It almost sounds like there’s this flywheel effect with recruitment and retention when you see your caregivers as a number one referral source. You’re getting new caregivers through your caregivers. Those caregivers you acquire that way have higher retention rates? It’s almost like the cyclical effect that I haven’t thought of before.

[00:29:18] Dobbin: Yes, it’s true.

[00:29:20] Holly: Then on the business development point, what are some of those initiatives that you’re dedicating more resources toward?

[00:29:27] Dobbin: I remember I was at a conference once, and I think Home Care Pulse, they had some slides that were up there as they were doing a presentation. They’ve always done a good job with stats within the industry. One of the things that they had shown was the smaller agencies, the larger agencies, those that had salespeople, and those that didn’t. That’s not really ever been much of a focus for us on hiring sales folks and certainly during the pandemic wasn’t really something we were too focused on, but I’d say we’re turning our attention a little bit more towards that now.

I think with our agencies, we have great people. To us, it’s celebrating their success to the extent that we have folks that can be able to market it a little bit more, making people aware of what we do, then I think that’s a positive thing. I’d say some of our investment recently has been on that side of things where we really hadn’t looked at that previously.

[00:30:23] Holly: We’re at the 30-minute mark of this discussion, so I’m going to start wrapping it up here with a couple of final questions. Looking ahead to the final six, seven months of 2022, what else is coming down the pike for Nova Leap?

[00:30:39] Dobbin: Really just focused on operations and looking at other potential M&A transactions. We’re a pretty consistent company, if anything. We have been pretty consistent over the last few years. Really just focused on the bread and butter of what we do and making sure we’re improving our recruiting and retention practices that we talked about, but also continuing to look at some deals that might come our way.

[00:31:01] Holly: More broadly than just your company Nova Leap, what’s one bold prediction that you have for the home care industry over the next six, seven months here?

[00:31:11] Dobbin: I’ll go back to maybe the hospital-at-home play here. I don’t know how that’s going to interact completely with home care, but it just strikes me that there’s an opportunity there. I guess my prediction over the next six or seven months is that there’s going to be something big that happens in that space that has an impact on us. Whether that’s a large transaction or whether it’s legislative, I really don’t know, but it strikes me that we’re at a point in time where I think things are lining up a little bit. It makes a lot of sense based on what we’ve just gone through over the last couple of years. I guess I’ll go down that path for now.

[00:31:53] Holly: It’s really interesting actually, there’s starting to be discussions about hospital-at-home models and whether a top-down payment approach or a bottom-up payment approach would be better for those models. Maybe not even better, but is there a value of having different types of payment models with hospital-at-home? I think in the not too distant future, we could definitely see more opportunity for home-based care providers to not just be a part of hospital-at-home, but to actually develop these programs and be the quarterback of hospital-at-home models that are launching.

[00:32:24] Dobbin: I think that makes sense. We often hear the difference between non-medical and skilled, which is not accurate. You’re looking after someone that lives with dementia. It does take skill. It takes training, which is why we support it so much.

I think because there’s so much spotlight on our industry and just how well we, I think, did through the pandemic in terms of support we provide to families and loved ones and so on, I think that we’re probably in a better position to make a little bit more noise in terms of what we can do to help through the continuum of care. I think we have to continue to push that forward. Credit to the organizations that are doing that and working on our behalf, but I think we are in a much better position today than we were a few years ago.

[00:33:24] Holly: All right. Well, I think that is the perfect spot to wrap up this episode of HHCN+ TALKS. I’ve been speaking with Nova Leap’s president and CEO, Chris Dobbin. Chris, thank you so much for your time this afternoon.

[00:33:36] Dobbin: Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it.[00:33:38]

Holly: Thank you to everybody who tuned in live and everybody who’s watching this on an on-demand basis via your HHCN+ dashboard. I’m Bob Holly with Home Health Care News and we’ll see you next time.

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